ESP Off(Road) - Jeep Commander Forums: Jeep Commander Forum
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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-22-2017, 01:22 AM Thread Starter
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Red face ESP Off(Road)

Soo today I went to a ****ty street here in Mexico which is like 40% of the streets at least inmy town, and there was a kind of step hill with kinda rough terrain soo i wanted to test the completly stock offroad capability of the commander.

I have the 3.7 Quadra Trac I, but still was expecting to go up without issue; I went halfway there and as soon as one wheel lifted I was stuck, apparently because of the Quadra Trac I system that if one of the rear tires losses traction it stops all the other ones.


First time I disabled TC to see if that helped but nope soo I changed my approach angle and cleared it, second time I turned ESP off and went up not as easily as expected (wheels spinned a little) but i cleared it without changing my approach angle and the wheel lifting soo I think when going offroad and heavy mudding ESP should be off completly on Quadra Trac I right?

Just sharing my experience and pics
Apparently the pics are not uploading soo heres the imgur album http://imgur.com/a/WVH2U

Last edited by Colerix; 04-22-2017 at 01:24 AM. Reason: Pics not loading from imgur
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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-22-2017, 08:51 AM
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I have the QDII and shut off the ESP when driving in heavy sand. I thought the brake was applied to the wheel losing traction.
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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-22-2017, 10:43 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Creek View Post
I have the QDII and shut off the ESP when driving in heavy sand. I thought the brake was applied to the wheel losing traction.
I thought the same but I could hear the lifted wheel spinning and the others not doing anything at all while ESP on, and when i turned ESP Off all the wheels where spinning and it didnt care if one wheel was lifted or hadnt traction at all.
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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-22-2017, 08:48 PM
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In theory, the QTI system should apply the brakes to wheels losing traction to force the power to other wheels. QTI has the more basic NV140 transfer case, so it can't change power distribution between front and rear wheels to fit needs but rather splits torque almost evenly to both front and rear. In reality, the lack of a proper locking differential causes the system to occasionally struggle.

The system likely cut power with ESP on, likely in an attempt not to overpower available traction, and in this case it failed to provide enough power to get the wheels with traction moving. By disabling ESP, the system likely stopped cutting power. The brake locking is still active, which is why you were able to spin all wheels rather than just the wheel with traction lost.

The ESP system isn't perfect, and is better fit for regaining traction on road and preventing oversteer/understeer than dealing with low traction off road. Most users, myself included, tend to prefer disabling ESP when driving off road.
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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-24-2017, 03:13 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the answer! really appreciate it!
I posted this soo I could learn more about the ESP and your answer really helped.
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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-24-2017, 09:43 AM
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Everything you want to know about ESP;

It's a long thread , but read it through.

Lots of good info here.

https://www.jeepcommander.com/forums/...p-disable.html


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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-24-2017, 10:09 AM
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https://www.jeepcommander.com/forums/...reply&p=175886
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongo View Post
I'm sure this is something a lot you guys already know, but there are some out there that might NOT have gone through the Owner's Manual enough, and on this section it is big and complicated, so I'm passing along what I've learned.

Someone had posted in another thread that they turn off the ESP with their QTI system in heavy mud and gets better results. That didn't make sense to me, because I thought it would turn off the Limited Slip feature, which would hurt capability in heavy mud. I figured I had better read up on it in the Owner's Manual, this is what I learned, Condensed down to make it easier.

ESP OFF Switch (2WD & 4WD High)
ON – Normal
Partial Off – Momentary Press – Turns Off TCS, except the “Limited Slip” Feature (Virtual LSD).
Full Off (4WD Only) – Press and Hold Switch for 5 sec with the Vehicle Stopped and the Engine Running – Turns Off ESP and TCS, except the “Limited Slip” Feature (Virtual LSD). Over 40 mph, it will switch to Partial Off Mode, under 35 mph, it will return to Full Off. This is only for Off-Roading.

If you have the QTII/QDII and go into 4Low, it automatically turns off ESP and TCS, except the "Limited Slip" feature, i.e. the Full Off Mode and the same 40mph/35mph figures apply for it turning back on/off automatically. Is it even possible to get to 40mph in 4LOW?
4WD Low – Full Off – Normal

These features, that the ESP Switch only turns off some of them are all part of the ELECTRONIC BRAKE CONTROL SYSTEM. The different features, sub-systems, I condensed down to this:

Anti-Lock Brake System (ABS)
Prevents Wheel Lock during Braking in Poor Traction Conditions and/or Maneuvering.

Traction Control System (TCS)
The ESP Off switch will turn this off, except the "Limited Slip" with Partial and Full Off Modes.
Limits Wheel Spin with Brakes and Throttle.
“Limited Slip”, Virtual LSD, using Brakes to Limit Wheel Spin of Low Traction Wheel.

Brake Assist System (BAS)
Detects Emergency Braking Situation, Complements ABS, Helps Apply Brakes Quicker & Firmer.

Electronic Roll Mitigation (ERM)
Monitors Rate of Steering and Speed, Uses Brakes and Reduces Throttle to Reduce the Potential of Wheel Lift.

Electronic Stability Program (ESP)
The ESP Switch will turn this off in the Full Off Mode, and also turn off TCS, except the "Limited Slip" feature, by pressing and holding the switch for 5 sec, while the vehicle is stopped with the motor running. And only off till you go over 40mph, where it will come back on again. If you go below 35mph, it will come back on again. Only for Off-Roading.
Enhances Directional Control and Stability, Uses Brakes and Reduces Throttle to Counteract UnderSteer and OverSteer.
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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-24-2017, 10:44 AM
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So one press of the ESP off button while moving basically just turns off the Traction Control and allows you to spin wheels on loose traction surfaces. If you come to a full stop, put the trans in park, and with the engine running press and hold the ESP off switch for 5 seconds, you'll get a chime and a message on the EVIC saying you're in ESP Off Mode. BTW, if you have QTII or QDII, and go into 4LOW, the ESP will go off, just like if you did the long press.

In snow/gravel/sand, it may be more effective to spin wheels to get going, but you'd want to maintain stability control and not spin out. So the momentary press of the ESP off button will disable traction control and allow you to spin wheels on loose surfaces.

If you're driving slowly in deep mud/snow/sand, you don't want to loose momentum, you'll accept slip sliding latterally and fish tailing to keep your momentum and have enough experience to do it, the ESP will prevent this and could kill momentum as it applies brakes to prevent you from fish tailing or slip/sliding latterally. This is when you want to do the long press of the ESP off to turn off the ESP as well as the traction control. (If you have 4LOW, this is the situation you'd want to go to 4LOW which do the same as the long press of the ESP off button).

Of course if you're in 4LOW, you're not likely to get up to 40mph, and if you driving above 40mph in any condition, you'd be stupid to have the ESP off, so it automatically turns itself back on till you get below 35mph again.

So, from the short description you gave of the surface you're going to drive on, doesn't sound like you needed to switch ESP off, either short or long press.

BUT, even if the ESP is totally off from a short press, and one wheel is off the ground with no traction, you should not loose torque to all the other wheels.

I have had two wheels off the ground (opposite sides/opposite ends/teeter totter) in my QTI Commander and did not loose torque to the other wheels with traction.

Like mentioned the ABS pump will activate to apply brakes to spinning wheels without traction, to redirect torque to the wheels that have traction. It does this by monitoring wheels speed, and will use the brake to limit the spin of wheels to stay within a certain amount of the others. i.e. allow enough difference for the vehicle to turn but not enough difference in wheels spin to allow a wheel with no traction to spin ineffectively.

Also mention, this "Brake Traction" system is reactive, meaning its reacts to it happening and then applies the brake to fix it. So its not as effective as a true locking differential, like in QDII, but its still very effective and does work.

Turning ESP Off, either short or long press, does NOT disable this feature at all, the Wheel spin limiting feature. The only way to disable it is too disable the entire ESP system or the ABS. which you would have an ABS/BAS/ESP light on the dash.


Remember, this system doesn't magically prevent the wheels with traction from loosing grip and spinning. You can still get stuck with the system. Off Road ability is more about suspension and weight distribution than drivetrain, so that you put pressure on all 4 wheels to get traction on uneven surfaces.

So based on your short description, I can only guess one of three things happened in your case:
1.) Not knowing how the system works, perhaps you mistook the slow spinning of the air borne wheel or its reaction time, that might take a moment or two, as it not working, in reality if you kept at it, it would have worked, or perhaps you didn't have enough traction on the wheels on the ground to keep moving because of suspension limits?
2.) Your ABS or something else in the system is NOT working, and thus the Brake Traction System can NOT work.
3.) You mentioned you were in Mexico, perhaps the Mexican version of the Commander doesn't have all the equipment of the U.S. version.

If you loose traction on some wheels, the brake traction system will come into play, and since it uses the ABS system, you will hear the ABS Pump go off. When I have driven my QTI Commander up a wet, grass covered, steep incline, it went up prefectly stable and straight, but the whole time I could hear the "Chunk, Chunk, Chunk" sound and vibration of the ABS pump going off, to stop the spin of different wheels on the wet grass as they went over it, to keep torque to the wheels that did have decent traction at the time.

When I teeter tottered my Commander on two wheels on the crest of a steep small hill, it slowed down significantly, the ABS pump, Chunk, Chunk, Chunk'ed as it kinda of inched forward in surges, but it kept going till I tipped forward and got 3 wheels on the ground, and then it moved normally despite one wheel being in the air.

When I pulled to the side of a snow covered road, to have the snow collapse (since it was hiding a gully on the side of the road), I had all 4 wheels in the snow, but since my suspension was limited in how far it could travel, and my underbelly was high centered on the snow, I could not get enough pressure on all 4 wheels or even two wheels to get enough traction to overcome the snow. The ABS pump, Chunk, Chunk, Chunk'ed, the tires spun at the same speed, I couldn't get unstuck. And the the Toyota that I pulled to the side to let pass in the opposite direction had to stop and pull me out.
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Last edited by Mongo; 04-24-2017 at 10:49 AM.
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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-08-2017, 11:47 PM Thread Starter
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Such a good explanation! Sorry for not answering, I thought everything had been said soo i stopped checking the post plus I get my daily dose of information about the commander on the facebook page now :/.

You were correct with "
Quote:
1.) Not knowing how the system works, perhaps you mistook the slow spinning of the air borne wheel or its reaction time, that might take a moment or two, as it not working, in reality if you kept at it, it would have worked, or perhaps you didn't have enough traction on the wheels on the ground to keep moving because of suspension limits?"
I tried 5 times after this post, all I had to do was to press the gas a little further. I just got worried about the chunck chunck of the ABS Pump and stopped the gas the first time after hearing it.

I got confident enough after that and tried a way steeper and worse hill and made it easier than that one! Its all about knowing your vehicle .

Thank you soo much again Mongo!
PD: Im in Mexico but my Commander was made in Detroit and sold somewhere in the USA, funny thing is my local dealer wont service it because its imported and 11 years old, they wont take imported or more than 10 years old cars. Im like: Just take my money bitches.
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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-09-2017, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colerix View Post
Such a good explanation! Sorry for not answering, I thought everything had been said soo i stopped checking the post plus I get my daily dose of information about the commander on the facebook page now :/.

You were correct with "

I tried 5 times after this post, all I had to do was to press the gas a little further. I just got worried about the chunck chunck of the ABS Pump and stopped the gas the first time after hearing it.

I got confident enough after that and tried a way steeper and worse hill and made it easier than that one! Its all about knowing your vehicle .

Thank you soo much again Mongo!
PD: Im in Mexico but my Commander was made in Detroit and sold somewhere in the USA, funny thing is my local dealer wont service it because its imported and 11 years old, they wont take imported or more than 10 years old cars. Im like: Just take my money bitches.
I have 2 words for you Colerix;

Bigger tires.


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Last edited by Big Blue; 05-09-2017 at 12:38 AM.
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