3.7L Trans Shift Improvement - Jeep Commander Forums: Jeep Commander Forum
Performance Modifications If you plan to modify your Jeep Commander, tell us about it in here.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-30-2014, 04:51 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
Points: 7,991, Level: 60 Points: 7,991, Level: 60 Points: 7,991, Level: 60
Level up: 21% Level up: 21% Level up: 21%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
luckyse7ens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: CA
Own a Commander?: Yes
Model year: 2010
Trim Package: Sport
Power-Train: 3.7L V-6
2WD
If 4WD - system: QT-I
Current Mileage: 140000
Posts: 1,585
3.7L Trans Shift Improvement

I'm guessing that no one has done this, but it is quite interesting and thought that I would share nonetheless.

The v6 5spd auto tranny is actually a Mercedes-Benz trans.

It is also used in the srt8 (6.1L) vehicles.

You can swap the Brown Top Solenoids for the AMG Blue Top solenoids and improve shift speed up and down dramatically.

Edit:
HOW TO (WK SRT-8)
http://www.cherokeesrt8.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=52025

Quote:
I took the jeep for a couple WOT runs and all i have to say is Holy CHIT. The blue tops are well worth the money.. The shifts are 100% better! the jeep now chirps 1-2 shift at 3/4 throttle.
Parts:

Solenoid Only:
http://www.smallfleetparts.com/AMG-M.../dp/B009HCCIZW

Full kit with 2 noids and fluid:

http://www.smallfleetparts.com/MB-So.../dp/B009HC5LCE

Quick Review:

http://www.lxforums.com/board/showth...My-Take-Anyway

Quote:
NAG = New Automatic Gearbox
1= 1st series...there was a rumored 2nd version but then the 7 and 8 speeds came out

W5A580 = W = rear drive(?) ---5 = 5 gears ---a= automatic---580= tq capacity as in 580nm

Also known as 722.6 from Benz

Last edited by luckyse7ens; 08-01-2014 at 04:12 PM.
luckyse7ens is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-31-2014, 08:33 AM
Senior Member
Points: 7,833, Level: 59 Points: 7,833, Level: 59 Points: 7,833, Level: 59
Level up: 42% Level up: 42% Level up: 42%
Activity: 23% Activity: 23% Activity: 23%
 
rhobll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: pittsburgh pa
Own a Commander?: Yes
Model year: 2006
Trim Package: Sport
Power-Train: 3.7L V-6
4WD
If 4WD - system: QT-I
Current Mileage: 125K
Posts: 554
This is an expensive parts swap. if I knew for certain that the shifting would improve, or just be consistent, I'd really consider having someone do this. I'm the biggest diy'er, as most here are, but fooling around with the nag in the driveway is no fun...the shifting is great on the highways, on long trips. Its the day to day city commuting that pisses me off, where the nag is always searching for the right gear, just seems confused at times. The "flash" did not make a difference either. That was a couple years ago. If this tranny wasn't attached to such a cool rig, it would've been gone a long time ago.
rhobll is offline  
post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-01-2014, 04:04 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
Points: 7,991, Level: 60 Points: 7,991, Level: 60 Points: 7,991, Level: 60
Level up: 21% Level up: 21% Level up: 21%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
luckyse7ens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: CA
Own a Commander?: Yes
Model year: 2010
Trim Package: Sport
Power-Train: 3.7L V-6
2WD
If 4WD - system: QT-I
Current Mileage: 140000
Posts: 1,585
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhobll View Post
This is an expensive parts swap. if I knew for certain that the shifting would improve, or just be consistent, I'd really consider having someone do this. I'm the biggest diy'er, as most here are, but fooling around with the nag in the driveway is no fun...the shifting is great on the highways, on long trips. Its the day to day city commuting that pisses me off, where the nag is always searching for the right gear, just seems confused at times. The "flash" did not make a difference either. That was a couple years ago. If this tranny wasn't attached to such a cool rig, it would've been gone a long time ago.
Well, this is well documented with this tranny on other vehicles.

I agree with you however. Elbows deep in the tranny in the driveway is over my head atm considering this is basically my girls DD.

That being said, the install looks straightforward, and having AMG quality shifts would REALLY be nice.

The reason I posted it was to show people that there is reasonable option for improving shifting performance in this vehicle, and considering that people have paid $350+ for tuners I could imagine someone would be willing to drop $450 for solenoids if they already planned on replacing tranny fluid anyhow.

Last edited by luckyse7ens; 08-01-2014 at 04:06 PM.
luckyse7ens is offline  
 
post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-04-2014, 03:22 PM
Senior Member
Points: 7,833, Level: 59 Points: 7,833, Level: 59 Points: 7,833, Level: 59
Level up: 42% Level up: 42% Level up: 42%
Activity: 23% Activity: 23% Activity: 23%
 
rhobll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: pittsburgh pa
Own a Commander?: Yes
Model year: 2006
Trim Package: Sport
Power-Train: 3.7L V-6
4WD
If 4WD - system: QT-I
Current Mileage: 125K
Posts: 554
Agreed. Hopefully someone here has done this and can give some positive feedback. I'd actually rather do this than the hypertech.
rhobll is offline  
post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-04-2014, 05:08 PM
Senior Member
Points: 15,906, Level: 81 Points: 15,906, Level: 81 Points: 15,906, Level: 81
Level up: 12% Level up: 12% Level up: 12%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
Mongo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Lusby, MD
Posts: 3,037
I suspect the poor shifting I sometimes get from my 3.7L/NAG1 combination is more the ESP/Traction control and the Drive By Wire.

It seems less that the tranny is NOT downshifting fast enough than it feels like the throttle is NOT opening fast enough. And there has been more than one time I have tried to pull out from gravel and wet with the front wheels turned, and it seems like the engine and tranny just stumbled all over itself and left me pulling out dead slow, only to go back and repeat the pull out in the same spot with the Traction Control Turned off only to find the surface with the front wheels turned so much result in instant wheel spin.

I would think a programming change in the TCM software would give me the firmer shifts I would like, the only reason to change shift solenoids would be if I'm driving the trans so hard or having shifts so fast, that a higher duty cycle is needed out of the solenoid. The standard solenoid should be able to do the job, it just needs the signal to tell it to shift faster [email protected]#$#@! But, if you want the solenoid to shift mega-fast 30 times a minute, like your in a "Fast & Furious" movie, yea, maybe the standard solenoid would start to wheez and say I can't go that fast.
Mongo is offline  
post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-05-2014, 06:19 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
Points: 7,991, Level: 60 Points: 7,991, Level: 60 Points: 7,991, Level: 60
Level up: 21% Level up: 21% Level up: 21%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
luckyse7ens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: CA
Own a Commander?: Yes
Model year: 2010
Trim Package: Sport
Power-Train: 3.7L V-6
2WD
If 4WD - system: QT-I
Current Mileage: 140000
Posts: 1,585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongo View Post
I suspect the poor shifting I sometimes get from my 3.7L/NAG1 combination is more the ESP/Traction control and the Drive By Wire.

It seems less that the tranny is NOT downshifting fast enough than it feels like the throttle is NOT opening fast enough. And there has been more than one time I have tried to pull out from gravel and wet with the front wheels turned, and it seems like the engine and tranny just stumbled all over itself and left me pulling out dead slow, only to go back and repeat the pull out in the same spot with the Traction Control Turned off only to find the surface with the front wheels turned so much result in instant wheel spin.

I would think a programming change in the TCM software would give me the firmer shifts I would like, the only reason to change shift solenoids would be if I'm driving the trans so hard or having shifts so fast, that a higher duty cycle is needed out of the solenoid. The standard solenoid should be able to do the job, it just needs the signal to tell it to shift faster [email protected]#$#@! But, if you want the solenoid to shift mega-fast 30 times a minute, like your in a "Fast & Furious" movie, yea, maybe the standard solenoid would start to wheez and say I can't go that fast.
Good point, I'm sure not a DBW fan. I think that the Hypertech Tune I installed recently helped in some of those areas a bit.

Last edited by luckyse7ens; 08-05-2014 at 06:23 PM.
luckyse7ens is offline  
post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-06-2014, 10:12 AM
Senior Member
Points: 15,906, Level: 81 Points: 15,906, Level: 81 Points: 15,906, Level: 81
Level up: 12% Level up: 12% Level up: 12%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
Mongo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Lusby, MD
Posts: 3,037
Quote:
Originally Posted by luckyse7ens View Post
Good point, I'm sure not a DBW fan. I think that the Hypertech Tune I installed recently helped in some of those areas a bit.
A real comparison would be to drive some of the earlier Commanders, I think the first years were NOT DBW, they were mechanical cables to the accelerator pedals. If the NAG1/W5A580 trans shifts better with that combination, you could tell that the DBW is a factor.

As well, you could experiment with driving around with the Traction Control off, pressing the switch like normal will result in only disabling the wheel spin prevention, you'll have all the other desirable/safety features of that system. I'm at the point now, when I occassionally encounter my Commander stumbling all over itself, I think for a second and say to myself, "You know, I probably would have chirped or come close to spinning at tire when that happen, it was probably just the traction control that did that."

I have read about kits and tricks to improve the throttle response of DBW in other vehicles, things like amplifying the signal to the throttle body (TB) to cause the TB to open/close faster.

I would "think" that is a programmable part of the PCM, that a Hypertech "could" change values in the program to have the TB open/close faster per pedal input.
Mongo is offline  
post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-06-2014, 04:14 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
Points: 7,991, Level: 60 Points: 7,991, Level: 60 Points: 7,991, Level: 60
Level up: 21% Level up: 21% Level up: 21%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
luckyse7ens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: CA
Own a Commander?: Yes
Model year: 2010
Trim Package: Sport
Power-Train: 3.7L V-6
2WD
If 4WD - system: QT-I
Current Mileage: 140000
Posts: 1,585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongo View Post
A real comparison would be to drive some of the earlier Commanders, I think the first years were NOT DBW, they were mechanical cables to the accelerator pedals. If the NAG1/W5A580 trans shifts better with that combination, you could tell that the DBW is a factor.

As well, you could experiment with driving around with the Traction Control off, pressing the switch like normal will result in only disabling the wheel spin prevention, you'll have all the other desirable/safety features of that system. I'm at the point now, when I occassionally encounter my Commander stumbling all over itself, I think for a second and say to myself, "You know, I probably would have chirped or come close to spinning at tire when that happen, it was probably just the traction control that did that."

I have read about kits and tricks to improve the throttle response of DBW in other vehicles, things like amplifying the signal to the throttle body (TB) to cause the TB to open/close faster.

I would "think" that is a programmable part of the PCM, that a Hypertech "could" change values in the program to have the TB open/close faster per pedal input.
Definitely '07 1/2 is when TB's went to DBW. The early Commanders have a cable.
luckyse7ens is offline  
post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-08-2014, 11:18 AM
Senior Member
Points: 7,833, Level: 59 Points: 7,833, Level: 59 Points: 7,833, Level: 59
Level up: 42% Level up: 42% Level up: 42%
Activity: 23% Activity: 23% Activity: 23%
 
rhobll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: pittsburgh pa
Own a Commander?: Yes
Model year: 2006
Trim Package: Sport
Power-Train: 3.7L V-6
4WD
If 4WD - system: QT-I
Current Mileage: 125K
Posts: 554
I have an early 3.7 with the cable and it has some weird shifting habits, but consistent. I'm guessing that this is what was intended. I've driven w traction control off many times and nothing changes. After hearing some intelligent talk on both the solenoids and the Hypertech tuner, i'm leaning towards the tuner, if i do anything.
rhobll is offline  
post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-12-2014, 11:46 AM
Senior Member
Points: 15,906, Level: 81 Points: 15,906, Level: 81 Points: 15,906, Level: 81
Level up: 12% Level up: 12% Level up: 12%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
Mongo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Lusby, MD
Posts: 3,037
I don't really know for sure, BUT, I suspect the trans solenoid are like the fuel injectors.

Some people buy bigger fuel injectors for their engine thinking it will give them more power and are disappointed when they find there is no power change at all. Well, first because just pumping more fuel into an engine with no other change just gets you less power, all your doing is richening the A/F ratio which doesn't make for more power. 2nd, becuase the electronic controls on the engine and trans are adaptive, meaning the sensors provide feedback on the how the engine/trans is operating and it adjusts the output to the things it controls to the engine/trans back to how they are intended to operate. So, bigger injectors just end up with the electronic controls shortening the injection pulse so that you get the same amount of fuel injected as you did with the previous smaller injectors.

Now, if you modified the motor with enough other mods that it was sucking in more air and needed more fuel, and was actually running short of fuel because you've hit the limit of what the original injectors can supply, then you would find a set of bigger injectors would actually make a difference and supply the fuel the electronic control is trying to inject but can't because the injectors are too small.

So, for solenoids in the trans, I don't know for sure, but they are still controlled by the electronics, so likely even if the solenoid operated differently than the OEM solenoid, the electronics would sense that and make adjustments to get the new solenoid to act and provide the same result which was the design, that is what the electronic management is there for.

SO, I would think changing the electronic management first would be the most fruitful mod to get a more desireable shifting trans. A new computer with different programming, or a hypertech that changes the programming in the existing computer. I also would make sure the Hypertech has the ability to mod the NAG1 trans beforing buying it, I don't know, but I think the Hypertech and other can't mod all engines and trans.

If I am right about the trans electronics being adaptive (and I can be wrong) the solenoids won't do anything. Its after you mod the trans enough that it would exceed the abilities of OEM solenoids, is where you would see the change if you went with them. For a trans, I imagine that would require at least new electronic programming and maybe even a modified valve body, then it may still be something like duty cycle and NOT speed of actuation or volume or things like that, i.e. you only need the high performance solenoids if you are racing and making the trans shift every two seconds for an extended period of time.

BUT, I could be wrong, maybe the blue top solenoids have different performance specs and the NAG1 electronic management does NOT vary how they trigger the solenoid based off feedback from the sensors, and changing the solenoid themselves do result in firmer/faster shifts.

I think the former scenario is far more likely, every electronic trans I have read about, modifies speeds and firmness of shifts based off feedback from sensors and the electronic management is looking to make the shift engage like it was programmed to do, i.e. how smooth or how firm. I would NOT spend all that money on the those blue top solenoids unless I had some very confident confirmation that the latter scenario was true.
Mongo is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Jeep Commander Forums: Jeep Commander Forum > Jeep Commander Discussion > Performance Modifications

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Jeep Commander Forums: Jeep Commander Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome