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my 06 Commander started doing something strange (~76000 km). I would fill up and the gauge wouldn't return to 'F'. Turn off and restart and it would be fine. Now, upon starting, it has started (the last 1000 kms) to light up the low fuel warning light, show 'E' (even trip computer says 0kms) until I drive for several seconds then it returns to normal. Chrysler is saying that it needs a new fuel pump unit (sending unit, seal, etc.) which will run about 1200.00 to repair.

I'm very pleased about this:jawdrop:.

If I'm not experiencing any performance issues, can I just put up with the 'inconvenience' of the gauge, or is it inevitable that the pump is on its way out? I can order a unit from the U.S. for much less and get a trusted independent mechanic to do the replacement ... do you guys have any online parts dealer preferences that I could check out?

Thanks very Much!!:bowdown:
 

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Fuel pumps aren't very hard to replace. Lol the hardest part about it is dealing with a full tank of gas! So do the tech a favor and don't fill the tank before bringing it in for service.

Definitely get a few quotes from independent shops. Even over here, I used to save customers a good 400-500 bucks on this type of service. $800 was usually the average price depending on how much the pump cost and what type of labor was involved..... some vehicles are very easy and can be done in an hour or two; others get more complicated and even require removal of some suspension components. Haven't done one on a commander but I have been under mine to determine my "game plan" for dropping the tank for my skid plate install and it looks pretty easy.
 

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Yeah, an independent quoted me three hours because of a tow package and skid plate (otherwise it would be two hours) ... if I go that route it would save me about 800.00!!! Just Crazy.
Thanks!
 

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There is an article in the latest Popular Mechanics about this. From what I read, this is caused by the amount of alcohol present in our gas, some places up to 10%. :mofo: The alcohol corrodes the electrical contacts in the fuel pump sender. This corrosion can cause an intermittent connection between the float arm and the resistor, the reading of which shows up on the gas gauge. PM suggests not taking it to a dealer, but to shop around for a good independent shop.

BWTM. GM sells a product called Fuel System Treatment Plus, pn 8861011. This product contains an additive that is supposed to prevent this corrosion. It has been known to reverse the corrosion. PM suggests trying this before spending a lot of money; plus it is a good fuel system cleaner too. The article did not state how much to use nor how long one would expect to see results. It makes sense to me to spend a little now to hopefully save a lot in the long run. If you should try this, let us know if it works. :eek:rangehat:

This would not apply to a FlexFuel vehicle, as these are designed to operate with E85 (85% alcohol).
 

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Thank you for the heads up!! My Jeep doesn't have a 'Flex Fuel' badge so I guess it doesn't need the 85% ... I will try this just in case I can save money without repair!
 

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Thank you for the heads up!! My Jeep doesn't have a 'Flex Fuel' badge so I guess it doesn't need the 85% ... I will try this just in case I can save money without repair!
Just as a FYI, a flex fuel vehicle doesn't have to run on E85, but it is designed to be able to run on it, to avoid problems like yours and in other places in the fuel system. :eek:rangehat:
 

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Just picked some up. You put it into an empty tank in between oil changes ... I'll let you know if it works.
 

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Just picked some up. You put it into an empty tank in between oil changes ... I'll let you know if it works.
Thank you. 3 - 5K seems like a long time, depending on how often you change your oil. I can understand using it this way if one is trying to prevent the problem. But since you are trying to eliminate the problem, is it possible to put it in more frequently? :icon_confused:
 

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A lot of the Flex Fuel vehicles also recommended in the O.M. to get a special motor oil from the dealer to use, if you were going to use E85. Leads me to believe that E85 is NOT as easy on the engine as gasoline.

Yes, its NOT that hard to get alcohol to burn in your motor, the chemistry works out that the O2 sensor will respond the same way also. But, you need to burn almost twice the volume of alcohol as gasoline to get the same power (meaning half as much MPG), so E85 or pure alcohol will likely need larger injectors. Alcohol is much harder to get a cold motor started than gasoline, that is the biggest reason why E85 still has 15% gasoline, to help start a cold motor. And requiring special oil for E85 makes me suspicious its tough on the motor as well, at least on the motor oil.

The big problem is the damage the alcohol will do to the fuel system parts. I hadn't hard that E10 gasohol was damaging fuel level sensors, but I could see how it could be true.

Personally, I don't risk it, I stick with Gasoline, unfortunately now a days, all you can get is E10.

Definitely verify your engine is definitely flex fuel. I had a flex fuel mini-van and it clearly stated it on the build sheet, in the O.M. and decals underhood. Don't assume your motor is flex fuel, when you see no verification, and try to use E85, you could end up very sorry. Maybe NOT right away, because the motor may run fairly well, but 20k miles down the road you could find all sorts of problems it created.
 

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I simply refuse to buy E85 because our politicians have mandated so much of it being used (and have subsidized it with billions of taxpayers dollars) that its driven up the price of corn and conversely affected food (and other commodity) prices. You would be amazed at the list of 1K+ foods that are processed with a corn ingredient or by product. Sorry, not trying to politically rant here but corn was meant to be food not fuel and add to that the fact that burning E85 gives off even more CO2 emissions than the same amount of gasoline I'll stick with gas. I've also taken the badge off the back of my Commander because I not only thought it was an ugle badge (yellow and green???) but I didn't wish to advertise an issue that I simply think is absurd and a waste of time, money, and corn.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I'm pretty sure up in Ontario we have 10% Ethanol. My Commander is not E85 compliant - so maybe I need to put a tank of Premium fuel, once in awhile? Ran about 80km with additive in the 'moving on empty' tank ... no performance issues :) But we'll see over the next while!
 

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Its more likely an electrical sending unit failure issue and if it is that, then tanking up with premium the next time won't change that. If you want a high quality gas additive try either Lucas gas treatment (whole small bottle) or Marvel Mystery Fluid (4 to 6 ounces per tank) these are the products that I use religiously, never had a fuel pump or sending unit ever fail on any vehicle I've ever owned...plus they lubricate and keep carbon from making deposits. Just a tip. :)
 

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it's way too early to tell. Yesterday afternoon I put in the Fuel System Plus (from GM) and drove about 80-90 kms with it concentrated in the tank. Throughout the day the gauge stayed true (through turning off and on) (yes, it was behaving problematically in the morning, before putting in the additive). Last night I filled up and the gauge went right to full. Today there were no problems again. I drove and parked all day (turning off and on) and the gauge dropped about a quarter tank (perfect), I filled up and the gauge went right to the top again. The day preceding my initial post had the gauge crapping out about every OTHER start up! So today was dramatically different ... we'll see how the next few days (into weeks) go.

This GM product is made specifically with 'corrosion from ethanol enhanced fuel and sending units', in mind. Too bad Chrysler didn't do this ... too bad the dealership didn't mention an alternative 'try' ... but they never do nowadays, do they? :)

Will keep you in the loop!
 

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Well its good to hear that maybe, just maybe the corrosion from the ethanol didn't permanently damage anything. Is there anyway at all you can find a better source of gasoline in your area or has the Canadian gov't mandated this blend of gas to be universal up there? I'm very curious about that. If so, maybe I could use a suggestion from one of my favorite Canadian themed movies of all time (Strange Brew)....tell em to "Take off eh?!?" :)
 

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it's way too early to tell. Yesterday afternoon I put in the Fuel System Plus (from GM) and drove about 80-90 kms with it concentrated in the tank. Throughout the day the gauge stayed true (through turning off and on) (yes, it was behaving problematically in the morning, before putting in the additive). Last night I filled up and the gauge went right to full. Today there were no problems again. I drove and parked all day (turning off and on) and the gauge dropped about a quarter tank (perfect), I filled up and the gauge went right to the top again. The day preceding my initial post had the gauge crapping out about every OTHER start up! So today was dramatically different ... we'll see how the next few days (into weeks) go.

This GM product is made specifically with 'corrosion from ethanol enhanced fuel and sending units', in mind. Too bad Chrysler didn't do this ... too bad the dealership didn't mention an alternative 'try' ... but they never do nowadays, do they? :)

Will keep you in the loop!
I'm glad to it worked out for you. Way to go, Popular Mechanics! Saved you a lot of $. If they are listed on the can/bottle, can you post the ingredients? Thank you.

Its more likely an electrical sending unit failure issue and if it is that, then tanking up with premium the next time won't change that. If you want a high quality gas additive try either Lucas gas treatment (whole small bottle) or Marvel Mystery Fluid (4 to 6 ounces per tank) these are the products that I use religiously, never had a fuel pump or sending unit ever fail on any vehicle I've ever owned...plus they lubricate and keep carbon from making deposits. Just a tip. :)
Also, can you list the ingredients in the MMO and Lucas, if they print them? I would love to compare these to the GM product, to discover the mystery ingredient. It's amazing to me that it worked right away, just like CLR on lime. :eek:rangehat:
 

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dhh3...Looking at the labels on bottles of both MMF & Lucas Gas treatment I do not see a list of ingredients...probably a proprietary mix, and since its not food oriented they are not legally forced to disclose the mix. I can tell you the the MMF looks and pours out almost with the same look and consistency as regular old ATF, but does not smell like ATF so I am sure that it just isn't ATF repackaged and sold for a higher price. The company has been around since 1923. As for the Lucas, well it looks a lot like diesel fuel additive, has a light brownish color and is chemically more like a liquid gel. I will provide links to the sites for both of these products, for the price, if someone is needing a fuel (or crankcase) additive I will assure anyone willing to give either of these products a try that myself and old family members have been using these products for generations (several decades) with complete 100% satisfaction. Like I've mentioned in earlier posts, I've never lost a fuel pump, never had an issue with plugs or any other mechanical part of any engine I've ever used these products on (including snow mobiles, lawn mower engines, etc).

::Marvel Mystery Oil::

Lucas Oil
 

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Also, can you list the ingredients in the MMO and Lucas, if they print them? I would love to compare these to the GM product, to discover the mystery ingredient. It's amazing to me that it worked right away, just like CLR on lime.

I found this on another forum. It's the Material Safety Data Sheet list of ingredients in MMO. What follows is the quote I copied:

Answer to: What's in MMO ( Marvel Mystery Oil)
That's the Marvel of The Mystery oil. Actually this stuff is closer to Slick 50 ...
than some may think. I know people that have used it for years. I have a can in my garage. They won't publish the ingrediants (at least they didn't used too) just like the Slick 50 people.

Basically you can add it to oil, gas and diesel as their advertisment shows :

Marvel Mystery Oil top cylinder lubricant gas and oil additive. A light-bodied friction reducing, wear-resistant, heat-resisting additive which produces no carbon or gum but a lubricating residue in combustion motors. Prevents sticky hydraulic valve lifters and counteracts harmful combustion residues. Mystery Oil combats internal motor rust and corrosion, lubricates valves, piston rings and upper cylinder walls and eliminates valve sticking. Keeps rings free and reduces piston and cylinder wear to a minimum. Also keeps fuel pump and carburetor parts clean, eliminating need of frequent adjustments. Mystery Oil retards formation of power-dissipating motor deposits. Can be added to diesel fuels, crankcase oils, gasoline, as it protects every part against wearing!

But if we search for an MSDS sheet on it we see it's basically oil, mineral spirits and naptha.

Anyway, I'd doubt if you can hurt anything with it and you can probably clean a few things with it. I don't think I'd use it on a regualar basis but if you have something that's dirty, sludgy or frozen I'd say it's worth a shot.

One of the MSDS sheets I found :

MARVEL OIL -- MYSTERY OIL - LUBRICATING OIL
MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET
NSN: 9150011264459
Manufacturer's CAGE: 95015
Part No. Indicator: A
Part Number/Trade Name: MYSTERY OIL
================================================== =========================
General Information
================================================== =========================
Item Name: LUBRICATING OIL
Company's Name: MARVEL OIL CO INC
Company's Street: 331 NORTH MAIN ST
Company's City: PORT CHESTER
Company's State: NY
Company's Country: US
Company's Zip Code: 10573
Company's Emerg Ph #: 914-937-4000
Company's Info Ph #: 914-937-4000
Distributor/Vendor # 1: NASTER SALE INC / DBA ACE TOOL CO
Distributor/Vendor # 1 Cage: 1X015
Record No. For Safety Entry: 001
Tot Safety Entries This Stk#: 003
Status: SMJ
Date MSDS Prepared: 01JUN91
Safety Data Review Date: 21FEB97
Supply Item Manager: CX
MSDS Preparer's Name: UNKNOWN
MSDS Serial Number: BLPGX
Specification Number: NONE
Spec Type, Grade, Class: NONE
Hazard Characteristic Code: F4
Unit Of Issue: EA
Unit Of Issue Container Qty: 1 QUART
Type Of Container: UNKNOWN
Net Unit Weight: 1.9 LBS
================================================== =========================
Ingredients/Identity Information
================================================== =========================
Proprietary: NO
Ingredient: KEROSENE (PETROLEUM), HYDROTREATED; (MINERAL SPIRITS)
Ingredient Sequence Number: 01
Percent: 30
NIOSH (RTECS) Number: OA5504000
CAS Number: 64742-47-8
OSHA PEL: 5 MG/M3 (MFR)
ACGIH TLV: 5 MG/M3 (MFR)
-------------------------------------
Proprietary: NO
Ingredient: SOLV REFINED HEAVY NAPHTHENIC DISTILLATE,PETROLEUM; (NAPTHENIC
BASE OIL DISTILLATE) CAS NO 64742-63-8, 64741-96-4.
Ingredient Sequence Number: 02
NIOSH (RTECS) Number: PY8040000
CAS Number: 64741-96-4
OSHA PEL: 5 MG/M3 (MFR)
ACGIH TLV: 5 MG/M3 (MFR)
================================================== =========================
Physical/Chemical Characteristics
================================================== =========================
Appearance And Odor: RED COLOR LIQUID WITH MILD ODOR.
Boiling Point: 313F,156C
Vapor Pressure (MM Hg/70 F): 2 @ 68
Specific Gravity: 0.9
Solubility In Water: NEGLIGIBLE
================================================== =========================
Fire and Explosion Hazard Data
================================================== =========================
Flash Point: 140F,60C
Extinguishing Media: CO2, DRY CHEMICAL, FOAM, WATER SPRAY, WATER FOG.
Special Fire Fighting Proc: WEAR NIOSH/MSHA APPROVED SCBA & FULL
PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT (FP N).
Unusual Fire And Expl Hazrds: DO NOT STORE OR MIX WITH STRONG OXIDANTS.
================================================== =========================
Reactivity Data
================================================== =========================
Stability: YES
Cond To Avoid (Stability): NONE SPECIFIED BY MANUFACTURER.
Materials To Avoid: OXIDIZING AGENTS.
Hazardous Decomp Products: NONE SPECIFIED BY MANUFACTURER.
Hazardous Poly Occur: NO
Conditions To Avoid (Poly): NOT RELEVANT
================================================== =========================
Health Hazard Data
================================================== =========================
LD50-LC50 Mixture: NONE SPECIFIED BY MANUFACTURER.
Route Of Entry - Inhalation: YES
Route Of Entry - Skin: NO
Route Of Entry - Ingestion: YES
Health Haz Acute And Chronic: EYE: MILD IRRITATION. SKIN: ONE OR MORE
COMPONENTS OF THIS MATERIAL MAY CAUSE SKIN IRRITATION. PROLONGED OR
REPEATED CONTACT MAY CAUSE REDNESS, BURNING AND DRYING AND CRACKING OF THE
SKIN. INGEST: PULMONARY ASPIRATION HAZARD IF SWALLOWED. DO NOT INDUCE
VOMITING.
Carcinogenicity - NTP: NO
Carcinogenicity - IARC: NO
Carcinogenicity - OSHA: NO
Explanation Carcinogenicity: NOT RELEVANT
Signs/Symptoms Of Overexp: SEE HEALTH HAZARDS.
Med Cond Aggravated By Exp: NONE SPECIFIED BY MANUFACTURER.
REMOVE TO FRESH AIR. SUPPORT BREATHING (GIVE O2/ARTIFICIAL RESPIRATION) (FP
N). EYES: IMMEDIATELY FLUSH EYES WITH POTABLE WATER FOR A MINIMUM OF 15
MINUTES, SEEK ASSISTANCE FROM MD (FP N). SKIN: FLUSH WITH COPIOUS AMOUNTS
OF WATER. CALL MD (FP N).
================================================== =========================
Precautions for Safe Handling and Use
================================================== =========================
Steps If Matl Released/Spill: RECOVER FREE LIQUID, ADD ABSORBENT TO SPILL
AREA.
Neutralizing Agent: NONE SPECIFIED BY MANUFACTURER.
Waste Disposal Method: KEEP PRODUCT OUT OF SEWERS AND WATERCOURSES.
DISPOSAL SHOULD BE IN COMPLIANCE WITH FEDERAL, STATE AND LOCAL LAWS.
Precautions-Handling/Storing: KEEP AWAY FROM HEAT AND OPEN FLAME, CONTAINS
REFINED PETROLEUM DISTILLATES, IF SWALLOWED DO NOT INDUCE VOMITING, IF
INGEST CALL MD IMMED.
Other Precautions: NONE SPECIFIED BY MANUFACTURER.
================================================== =========================
Control Measures
================================================== =========================
Respiratory Protection: NIOSH/MSHA APPROVED RESPIRATOR APPROPRIATE FOR
EXPOSURE OF CONCERN (FP N).
Ventilation: MECHANICAL VENTILATION AS NEEDED.
Protective Gloves: CHEMICAL RESISTANT GLOVES.
Eye Protection: CHEMICAL WORKERS GOGGLES (FP N).
Other Protective Equipment: USE CHEMICAL RESISTANT APRON OR OTHER
IMPERVIOUS CLOTHING TO AVOID PROLONGED OR REPEATED SKIN CONTACT.
Work Hygienic Practices: NONE SPECIFIED BY MANUFACTURER.
Suppl. Safety & Health Data: NONE SPECIFIED BY MANUFACTURER.
================================================== =========================
Transportation Data
================================================== =========================
Trans Data Review Date: 97052
DOT PSN Code: LKZ
DOT Proper Shipping Name: PETROLEUM DISTILLATES, N.O.S. OR PETROLEUM
PRODUCTS, N.O.S.
DOT Class: 3
DOT ID Number: UN1268
DOT Pack Group: III
DOT Label: FLAMMABLE LIQUID
IMO PSN Code: LMH
IMO Proper Shipping Name: PETROLEUM DISTILLATES, N.O.S. o
IMO Regulations Page Number: 3375
IMO UN Number: 1268
IMO UN Class: 3.3
IMO Subsidiary Risk Label: -
IATA PSN Code: TJB
IATA UN ID Number: 1268
IATA Proper Shipping Name: PETROLEUM DISTILLATES, N.O.S.
IATA UN Class: 3
IATA Label: FLAMMABLE LIQUID
AFI PSN Code: TJB
AFI Prop. Shipping Name: PETROLEUM DISTILLATES, N.O.S.
AFI Class: 3
AFI ID Number: UN1268
AFI Pack Group: III
AFI Basic Pac Ref: A7.3
MMAC Code: NR
N.O.S. Shipping Name: CONTAINS KEROSENE AND NAPHTHALENIC PETROLEUM
DISTILLATES.
Additional Trans Data: PETROLEUM OIL,UN1270,3,III IS NOT A PSN UNDER IMO
AND IATA.
================================================== =========================
Disposal Data
================================================== =========================
================================================== =========================
Label Data
================================================== =========================
Label Required: YES
Technical Review Date: 21FEB97
Label Date: 22NOV91
MFR Label Number: UNKNOWN
Label Status: F
Common Name: MYSTERY OIL
Chronic Hazard: YES
Signal Word: CAUTION!
Acute Health Hazard-Slight: X
Contact Hazard-Slight: X
Fire Hazard-Slight: X
Reactivity Hazard-None: X
Special Hazard Precautions: ACUTE: COMBUSTIBLE MATERIAL. MAY CAUSE SKIN
IRRITATION. PULMONARY ASPIRATION HAZARD IF SWALLOWED. CHRONIC: PROLONGED OR
REPEATED CONTACT MAY CAUSE REDNESS, BURNING AND DRYING, AND CRACKING OF THE
SKIN.
Protect Eye: Y
Protect Skin: Y
Protect Respiratory: Y
Label Name: MARVEL OIL CO INC
Label Street: 331 NORTH MAIN ST
Label City: PORT CHESTER
Label State: NY
Label Zip Code: 10573
Label Country: US
Label Emergency Number: 914-937-4000


If you search the Lucas Oil website you can find a PDF MSDS for Lucas Fuel Treatment, but here's what they list for ingredients:

SECTION 1
PRODUCT AND COMPANY IDENTIFICATION
Product Name: Lucas Fuel Treament
Product Description: Base Oil and Additives Product Number: 10020, 10003, 10013 Intended Use: Fuel Additive
COMPANY IDENTIFICATION Supplier: Lucas Oil Products Inc. 302 North Sheridan St. Corona, ca. 92880 USA

SECTION 2
COMPOSITION / INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
No Reportable Hazardous Substance(s) or Complex Substance(s).
Name Hydrotreated Heavy Paraffinic Distillate
CAS# 64742-54-*7
Concentration <90%

Is anyone knowledgeable in additives enough to expand on why/what/how MMO or Lucas work?
 

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Wow....reading thru all that glazed my eyes back over at 5 am! I guess after 3 decades of using these products in everything I've ever owned I can't tell you how they work, or why they work, just that they do work and I've never blown and engine, lost a pump, fouled plugs, gummed up a carburetor or injectors or had any other type of mechanical problem with anything I've ever owned (which is a very extensive list) and I've religiously used both of these products for all that time. I put 4 ounces of MMO per every tank of gas I've ever pumped into every car/truck or Jeep I've ever owned. As far as a successful testimonial from a gear head who's built multiple fast street cars and have kept 2 Jeep's in tip top condition for years, both products work great for me, so I'm assuming anyone else who tries them will end up with the same experiences as me. That was one of the reasons why I opened up conversation about gas/oil additives a little over a week ago because I was curious about the products other folks out there were using and if some others were actually using the same ones as me. :)
 

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There is an article in the latest Popular Mechanics about this. From what I read, this is caused by the amount of alcohol present in our gas, some places up to 10%. :mofo: The alcohol corrodes the electrical contacts in the fuel pump sender. This corrosion can cause an intermittent connection between the float arm and the resistor, the reading of which shows up on the gas gauge. PM suggests not taking it to a dealer, but to shop around for a good independent shop.

BWTM. GM sells a product called Fuel System Treatment Plus, pn 8861011. This product contains an additive that is supposed to prevent this corrosion. It has been known to reverse the corrosion. PM suggests trying this before spending a lot of money; plus it is a good fuel system cleaner too. The article did not state how much to use nor how long one would expect to see results. It makes sense to me to spend a little now to hopefully save a lot in the long run. If you should try this, let us know if it works. :eek:rangehat:

This would not apply to a FlexFuel vehicle, as these are designed to operate with E85 (85% alcohol).
Found this:
GM Fuel System Treatment PLUS, Fuel Sending Unit Corrosion and Fuel System Deposits
2006 and Prior All GM Cars and Trucks

GM Fuel System Treatment PLUS, P/N 88861011 (for U.S. ACDelco®, use 88861013) (in Canada, 88861012), is now available.

Added Benefits and Uses
The PLUS portion of GM Fuel System Treatment PLUS is the addition of a filmer additive that, when used regularly, can protect fuel system sending units from the corrosive effects of certain sulfur contaminants found in some of today's gasoline.

Sulfur contamination can disrupt electrical continuity of certain fuel sending units and lead to erratic or false fuel gauge readings. With scheduled usage, GM Fuel System Treatment PLUS protects against the effects of harmful sulfurs in gasoline.

You Get Four Benefits
One bottle of GM Fuel System Treatment PLUS added to the fuel tank at each oil change:

• Cleans -- Sulfur corrosion from fuel gauge sending units.

• Prevents -- Harmful sulfur components from attacking sensitive fuel system electronics.

• Protects -- By coating metallic surfaces of the fuel system.

• Removes -- Engine deposits left from use of poor quality fuels.

GM Fuel System Treatment PLUS will replace the original GM Fuel System Treatment, P/N 12345104 (in Canada, 89020804). The original formula may still be available for a limited time, and provides the excellent Fuel System Cleaning aspects of the new product without the filmer.


This thing is spendy! Around $25-27 per treatment. However, trolling GM Safari van forums and some Corvette forums yielded anecdotal evidence that the stuff does work. Some of the thread posts came from guys who seemed to really know about what they were doing re: maintenance. This is something I'll keep in mind because the 10% ethanol B.S. I can't help but buy already ate my Dad's fuel pump/sender unit assy. in his Grand Cherokee. I do oil changes every 5K with premium stuff (oil and filter), so this may be a good prophylactic against that corrosive ethanol crap.
 
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