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Those with the HEMI

21K views 72 replies 27 participants last post by  4pasnu 
#1 · (Edited)
Do ya'll really want performance engine stuff?

Cold air inductions?
Headers?
Ported heads?
Cams?
Stroker motors?
Blue Printed Water Pumps?
Adjustable timing sprokets?
Programmers?
Exhaust?

I need to know because if I'm barking up the wrong tree let me know now.............we can make 385 - 400 rear wheel horse power / 390 - 415 trq with the 5.7 and the work can be done in the driveway.

A healthy and programmed 392ci (5.7 stroker) can make 425 - 450 at the wheels with about 440 - 460 trq.........

These thing run better than most of you know or have been exposed to..........the low end torque of this motor is sick................just to give you an idea; we stroked a 6.1 to 426ci and put it on the dyno. We had to make our pull for power in 3rd gear because 4th gear trips the speed limiter before the redline.............anyways, we have to start our pull about 3200 rpm because any lower and the car down shifts..............so we hold the car in 3rd gear at 3000 - 3200 rpm and romp on it: RESULT : the car's torque jumped to 450 ft/lb and never fell below it all the way to redline at 6400. Peak torque was something like 524 I believe and the car made 519 rwhp.

This is a mild cam and this motor is in a Magnum SRT8 here in Houston............it is a daily driver and is smooth enough for our customer to drive his kids and wife in and wild enough to run mid-11's at the 1/4 mile track.

This car weighs in at 4700+ pounds..........

So...............is the Jeep market fruitful enough for us to spend the time, energy, money, and effort to grow it and work with?

Lee [/url]
 
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#2 ·
Personally for me, No. I like the power and performance but it is just a toy, something to go out and play with the other boys in. Not interested in racing it and all that extra power isn't really needed off road if you have the HEMI. IMHO
 
#3 ·
not arguing just discussing...........

Doesn't the low end grunt-power of a diesel make it more attractive for off-roading?

How about when a HEMI makes the same off-throttle torque...........isn't that appealing to some level?

I'm not talking about racing............but adding performance items to make more low-end torque; doesn't that make up the the inability of having a "super-low" gear? (to some extent?)

Our dyno has only shown the 5.7 to make about 270 - 285 rwhp and about 300 -310 torque (peak) to the wheels................without pulling the motor out of the Jeep and just taking off parts and bolting on new ones I am telling you we are at 385 - 400 rwhp / 390 - 420 torque

Can you use that power offroad?

Now what if I told you that with a few, specifc parts and a tuner you can actually INCREASE your gas milage while actually gaining power? The MDS guys have the most to gain here versus someone like me with a 2006 with no MDS but a gain is a gain.

Most guys going the fuel-milage route with minimal parts tend to still be in the 330 rwhp/350 trq range (in the cars anyways)

certain wind drag factors we can't do anything about obviously..........

At this point I'm just kicking around some thoughts and seeing what the reaction is.........................and if the response is, "Yes I am really interested but skeptical" then we can go from there to share what we know and build mine and possibly help sponsor 1 or 2 Jeeps from here as a "test bed" to prove the point.

If the reaction is like yours, "Nah...........270 rwhp is all I need" then we'll merely move along and spend our time, energy and money else where such as the cars and the Ram truck.

However if someone is past due waiting and ready to jump in with both feet..................then we need to get busy and make sure we document the build on here so people will actually start to be able to make proper choices on their own rides.

We've known for quite awhile that not all cold air inductions do as they promote..............in fact a couple actually HURT performance.

Not all exhausts did as they promised.

The chips were marginal at best.....

We've been thu the whole pully testing and developement.......

We've been making heads and have countless hours on the flow-bench and on dynos and can make the stock HEMI head out flow my port Edelbrock Performer RPM heads on my 440 big block Dart.

Our heads and intake is on the fastest LX in the world 2006 SRT8 Magnum w/ Vortec R trim blower at full wieght running 10.6's

Our full product line on the fastest full wieght 300C 5.7 running a 11.8

We were the first to make a dyno proven 500 rwhp on motor only.........its daily driven here in Houston

We have alot to share...........................but just like at lunch time, you gotta see who hungry before you go sharing your food.
 
#6 ·
What about the 4.7, do you have anything for it?
 
#7 ·
Do we? No

Can we? Possibly

Explain: The 4.7 is a motor IMO that will go away and has limited potential compared to the HEMI...............the HEMI is one of the best stock motors I've ever seen and if the after market would get a clue, Dodge would be leading the way in performance.

Therefor there is minimal upside in spending all the time and money into 4.7 production-parts when the motor itslef is pinching out. To further that line of thought, those wanting performance parts most likely started with the motor with the biggest upside to begin with (some would think).

Our company is based around the HEMI (5.7 and 6.1) and not around a platform (LX, LY, Jeep, truck, or swaps) however we are carrying the supportive products that go along with these platforms........i.e. we carry exhaust, CAI, and lights for the came car we sell our heads/cams to.
 
#9 ·
if its an 06 it doesn't have MDS..........a feature released in the 2007 model

The best way to make a truck run better gas milage is to figure out whats killing the milage to begin with. In my case, there is nothing that can be done; its a math issue...........

I sit in dead-lock traffic in Houston..........nothing I can do about milage while sitting still buring gas, ya know?

Anyways.......the trick here is to make what you have more effcient.

I can tell in my own truck that as I cruize down the freeway at 60mph I can get 18mpg but bouncing around town light-to-light I get 13mpg............big hit. I conclude that the fuel sucker is obviously the energy it takes to get my truck moving not the effort it takes to keep it in motion. (i.e. wind drag, tire inflation, etc.)

So if I can use 40% motor effort to get my truck moving as appose to 60% motor effort to get moving yet at the near or same fuel usage then I will actually use less to do more...........:icon_confused:............or in other words save gas.

The best trick by far is proper "air in / air out"...............CAI and exhaust

With the cars, the best product out there is by AFE called the AFE II..............but I'm not sure if that design made it to the Jeeps (yet) or if we can use the one from the LX platform.

I also need to start playing around with some exuasts to see what makes sense............but I can tell you that my wife's 5.7 Aspen flows exhaust MUCH more efficient than my Jeep 5.7

I think the best bang for the buck on the exhaust side will be the 6.1 headers that come STOCK with the GC SRT8

Next the heads.................the port is okay and clean up alone picked up ALOT of flow. THe valve job and throat are poor............and milling the head .030 bump compression to just under 10.5:1

Cam design has been something we've played with alot of the last couple of years...............biggest thing for off-roaders is to remember the phrase "less is more" in creating torque. TOrque motors need alot of cyl pressure and we achieve that with a proper cam.

You put these elements together in the right combo you make more power right off of idle and use the same fuel if not less yet achieve more power. This more power helps just getting to 45 mph and cruizing...................thus the savings.

For MDS HEMI owners 2007-2008, the power advantage means MDS comes on more often and sooner than ever before..................these guys are spending more time in 4cyl mode and burning ALOT less fuel. Some of our car customers are getting 24 - 26 mpg yet making around 380 rwhp and running high 12's on street tires in a 4500 pound car
 
#11 ·
I think you may be underestimating the market for the 4.7L. Here is some info that I recently found that sheds some light on this engine.

http://www.allpar.com/mopar/47.html

Where will the aftermarket - and Mopar Performance - take the 287? There's already a supercharger setup from Performance West, and available through any Jeep dealer. But less radical upgrades would seem to be quite easy. Revised, premium fuel calibration - more spark advance, and a tad more fuel in the form of a computer chip flash would seem to be almost a must. There's room for larger valves, the Mopar machine shops are probably already plotting how they'll re-contour and flow the heads; headers are almost guaranteed, along with a less restrictive air intake setup, and Crane or Comp Cams will surely have cams for it. In other words, we see no reason why this engine can't respond to all the usual hot rodding techniques, and then some. In fact, with such a bountiful set of basic ingredients, hot rodding this engine seems a natural.
Buddy Revell pointed out that the new engine is "almost" a Hemi - "the only reason it isn't called a hemi is because the combustion chambers have a wall on one side that makes it look kind of like a flat tire. Other than that everything is in the same arangment. The valve springs are across from each other and the spark plug goes right down the middle."
 
#18 ·
but what the 4.7 doesn't have is the strong built bottom end (design wise), it doesn't have the 13* head, it doesn't have the long runner intake, and is down 1 full litre.

The big valves that were mentioned are to makeup for a poor line-of-sight that the HEMI head doesn't lack. The 5.7 head STOCK flows 285 cfm at .600 - .625 lift which is better than many big block heads yet it ONLY uses a small 2.00 intake valve and 1.52 exhaust valve.

But I'm not here to dismiss or belittle another motor rather explain what we offer and what I'm interested in supporting if the market is there.
 
#12 · (Edited)
MomsR/T said:
if its an 06 it doesn't have MDS..........a feature released in the 2007 model
You seem to think you know so much about the Commander but you are wrong on this. The '06 HEMIs DO have the MDS.
 
#15 ·
whaaaooooo...................wait a minute here.

I don't pretend to know crap about the Jeeps in any fashion and in fact have alot to learn, however I know a TON about this motor and Mopars in general. I have alot to share and alot ot learn and have a company with a great reputation and came to help if there is any interest.
 
#13 ·
actually since 2003

and

my resources tell me that the PCM which allowed the HEMI to communicate with the truck tranny was not out until the 2007 model; can you share with me what leads you to believe different please?
 
#14 ·
actually since 2003

and

my resources tell me that the PCM which allowed the HEMI to communicate with the truck tranny was not out until the 2007 model; can you share with me what leads you to believe different please?
Your resources are WRONG.
 
#17 ·
actually since 2003

and

my resources tell me that the PCM which allowed the HEMI to communicate with the truck tranny was not out until the 2007 model; can you share with me what leads you to believe different please?
You can start with this and if that isn't good enough for you I can try to scan my build sheet and post it. Don't forget you are talking to some people here that know the Commander inside and out.
http://www.xkjeeps.com/xk_overview.htm
 
#19 ·
Jeep5253................I don't know what we're getting off on the wrong foot but I think somehow I've offended you in some way. What ever I've done to upset you I sure am sorry.

I will look into the whole MDS thing but even if the 2006 does have MDS its only great news for us, no?

Would you care to know more about the engine because THATS what I bring to the table?
 
#20 ·
Jeep5253................I don't know what we're getting off on the wrong foot but I think somehow I've offended you in some way. What ever I've done to upset you I sure am sorry.

I will look into the whole MDS thing but even if the 2006 does have MDS its only great news for us, no?

Would you care to know more about the engine because THATS what I bring to the table?
And you still don't believe the people that own it - that is the problem. So basically you are calling us liars.
 
#22 ·
Now, I am 99.9% certain that the 2006 XK does have MDS. I think what Jeep5253 is saying is that although you claim to know about the engine in question, you aren't sure that it even HAS MDS.

How can you make a claim as to improved capability (which I would be interested in, especially with improved MPG) based on specific engine expertise when you aren't even sure what the capabilities are in the first place?

What would your modifications do to the factory warranty?
 
#23 ·
Now, I am 99.9% certain that the 2006 XK does have MDS. I think what Jeep5253 is saying is that although you claim to know about the engine in question, you aren't sure that it even HAS MDS.

How can you make a claim as to improved capability (which I would be interested in, especially with improved MPG) based on specific engine expertise when you aren't even sure what the capabilities are in the first place?
Because I haven't taken an engine out of the Jeep (5.7 but we have done a 6.1 GC) yet know its the same as the car (albiet with a truck twist).

THe secrets don't lay within the motor rather within the tuner Diablo said would be out several months ago.................the "truck twist" has given them fits obviously.

The head flow, engine build, and math doesn't change from one platform from the other....................however what may change is WHERE the customer wants his power.

ie. Car guy may want his power from 3500 - 6400 while the Jeeps may prefer 1500 - 4000...............no problem

The MDS discussion has no effect of the ability nor inability either way and have no relavence towards the discussion. I can take a 2005 Dodge Truck NON-MDS and put it straight into a 2008 MDS as long as I switch out the lifters and electronic controlers..............same motor.

THe only other addition / change is the frt timing cover and the passenger side head (EGR / non-EGR)

So I'm not a cherry at this............and I don't pretend to know it all..............but I think I can be a valuable addition here if there is the want / need.
 
#21 ·
bro I have one...............I'm not calling anyone anything..........relax

I may be wrong but its no big deal either way and doesn't add to nor distract ffrom the discussion at hand.........

I said that from the people I've delt with, the belief was / is that the CPU of the jeep in 06 is / was the same for the RAM which had to wait for 07 to release the MDS.

No more no less..........

I rather the whole MDS thing not to detract from the orginal question if there is a market for performance.......................

I haven't come to preach I came to help add (if wanted)

I do know the heads, what cams work and how, I do understand many of the building issues we oringally went thru, we have addressed the original issues and have done really well with this motor. We can bring all this hard work from the cars and Rams into the Jeep world......if there is the want / need
 
#24 · (Edited)
Here is a section of the build sheet for my 2006 Jeep Commander Limited. Notice the blue highlighted line.

Dear Tom:

Thank you for contacting the Jeep Customer Assistance Center regarding
the build sheet for your vehicle.

According to our records, your vehicle was equipped from the factory
with the following:

*SL Leather Trimmed Bucket Seats
-D1 Dk Slate Gray/Lt Graystone
ADLP Skid Plate Group
AEK Electronic Infotainment Sys Group
AHX Trailer Tow Group IV
AJYS Popular Equipment Group
APAS Monotone Paint
AWBP Quadra-Drive 4WD System
AWY Off Road Group II
A55P 5.7L Eng(EZB)/5Spd A/T 545RFE(DGQ)
BABS 160 Amp Alternator
BCNS 730 Amp Maintenance Free Battery
BGES Brake Assist
BNBS Electronic Stability Program
BRYS Anti-Lock 4-Wheel Disc Brakes
CACS Low Back Bucket Seats
CBFS Premium Door Trim Panel
CDUS Manual Driver & Pass Lumbar Adjust
CEC Saddle Brown Seats
CFPS 3rd Row Seat
CF1S 2nd Row 40/20/40 Fold & Tumble Seat
CF4S Child Seat Upper Tether Anchorages
CGSS Supplemental Side Air Bags
CGUS Child Seat Anchor System-LATCH Ready
CG3S Advanced Multistage Front Air Bags**
CG6S Center Rear 3-Point Seat Belt
CHBS Cloth Covered Headliner
CJ5P Supp. Side Curtain All Rows Air Bags
CKDS Floor Carpet
CKNS Cargo Compartment Carpet
CKTS Cargo Tie Down Loops
CLES Front & Rear Floor Mats
CLGS Covered Cargo Storage
CLHS Cargo Trim Panel w/Storage Net
CSRS Passenger Assist Handles
CSTS Exterior Assist Handle
CSVS Interior Assist Handles
CUFS Full Length Floor Console
CUNS Overhead Console
CVEP Rear Overhead Console
DGES All 5-Speed Automatic Transmissions
DGQ 5-Spd Automatic 545RFE Transmission
DHAS Lock-Up Torque Converter
DHXS Quadra-Trac II Full-Time,Active 4WD
DJAS 200MM Front Axle
DMES 3.73 Axle Ratio
DRSS 213MM Rear Axle
DSFP Elec LTD Slip Differential Rr Axle
DSGP Elec LTD Slip Differential Frt Axle
EZB 5.7L Hemi Multi Displacement Engine
GBBS Tinted Windshield Glass
GCBS Front Door Tinted Glass
GEGS Deep Tint Sunscreen Glass
GEPS Flipper Liftgate Glass
GFAS Rear Window Defroster
GNCS Sun Visors w/Illum Vanity Mirrors
GNKS Rear View Auto Dim Mirror
 
#25 ·
cool............nice to know

with that being the case, we have alot more gas milage to take advange of. MDS is a strange bird to say the least. It moniters:

1) gear
2) load
3) tps
4) map

and some other crap to determin if things are smooth enough to engage 4 cyl mode. With that said, in the 4500 pound LX platform, our customers have picked up 4 - 5 mpg on average using the freeway as the test model.

Do I assume the EXACT same for the Jeep? Nah.....but close

I think freeway drivers would be the biggest gainers........but one again, this is based off of the basic principles:

1) cyl pressure
2) small cam = better torque and better cly pressures
3) air in / air out

Coming from the car / truck platforms I need to do some hmework on what is actually avail right now for us.......
 
#27 ·
No. It means you owe us an apology.
 
#28 · (Edited by Moderator)
dude what is your deal?

No one called you a liar and its no big deal either way.......if you want me to say I'm sorry I was wrong then you have it, but you have effectively killed the thread where a known valuable quantity has come forth and said they would help propel the effort towards making the Jeep platform a better place and somehow you think this is contest.........

(edited out) I am here to help..............MDS or no-MDS it doesn't change 1 thing on the motor.................electronic yes; specific mechanical geometry no.

If a FORUM isn't a place to exchange ideas and use the collective for the betterment of a single cause then whats it good for?

I opened the thread making an honost attempt to ask a question........

You countered with a different piece of info

I said your statement was counter to what has been shared with me and asked if you can share your sources

And now your tone with me (or at least the way I percieve it) is offensive and bold

Lets move on............MDS is on the 2006 Commander and all 2006 5.7 LX models................not on the truck until 2007 and FORUM USER NAME jeep5253 nailed it spot on.

The meaning of which changes nothing in terms of power potential, relative gains and experiences of that learned from the 2003 - 2008 Rams, 2005 - 2009 LX's, and 2008 - 2009 LY's, and mechanical geometry of the motor.

(however it sure makes the mpg hurdle easier to over come)
 
#29 ·
my question remains..........

I can help advance the HEMI's to a point equal to where we already are in the TRUCK and CAR market who use the EXACT same motor...........

Our company has done ground breaking work and helped lead to the point we currently are today...........

We have something to offer the Jeep world if the Jeep world has the need / want................
 
#30 ·
Maybe I missed it. Who is "we" and do "we" have a website?
 
#32 · (Edited)
yes sir...............but if I take that route will the ADMIN hammer strike upon my head?

We currently support more FORUMS than I care to now and that why the litmus test here and now. If this is something the people say, "Yeah.........lets go this direction" and "Yeah if you'll commit the time and resources and have competitive pricing, we'll do business with you guys"

I don't mind having my guy pick up the phone and putting together the best performing "Commander" products all in 1 place at a competetive price but our core is HEMI performance and if thats a dud then the rest will soon follow........

If people understand we cater to HEMI Jeeps first yet still provide all the do-dads that go with that platform (lifts, bumpers, racks, skid plates, mats, chrome stuff, etc) then I think that model seems to be more do-able.
 
#31 ·
I like the idea. but i have a 4.7L ... thought it would be more "spirited" than what it is. can't go back and buy the 5.7L now... but if i could get more TQ and HP... that's never a bad thing.
 
#34 ·
Looking at the XKjeep.com site, it looks like ALL 5.7 Hemi's came with MDS in 2006... the 3 engine choices were the 3.7 V6, the 4.7 V8 and the 5.7 Hemi with MDS.

I'm still a noob, and don't know all the facts... but that is what I am lead to believe that all Commanders with a Hemi have MDS?

Is this correct?

And if not, then what it the key to working out if my Hemi has MDS or not?
 
#35 ·
Looking at the XKjeep.com site, it looks like ALL 5.7 Hemi's came with MDS in 2006... the 3 engine choices were the 3.7 V6, the 4.7 V8 and the 5.7 Hemi with MDS.

I'm still a noob, and don't know all the facts... but that is what I am lead to believe that all Commanders with a Hemi have MDS?

Is this correct?

And if not, then what it the key to working out if my Hemi has MDS or not?
Yes, all Commanders with the HEMI have the MDS - from the beginning of production to the present.
 
#36 ·
OK. OK. Enough.
I cant say that I have unlimited funds, but I am interested in what MomsR/T is claiming. I would be interested in what engine mods you plan on bolting on, and estimated cost per hp or ft/lb. If it is $6,000 for 50 hp then I am not interested. I don't know how many people are willing to seriously mod the engine for fear of warranty issues, etc... Some of the 2006 owners are way past that though. More and more won't have to worry about that as time goes by, so I would guess that interest in this type of performance will increase...
 
#40 ·
I now agree with jeep5253 that the 06 COmmander has MDS........

As for hp per dollar thats a funny one because its not a linear equation in parts rather a direct equation to the finished good. I mean:

heads, cam, full exhaust, cai, and a tuner may run something like $4,370 uninstalled and make 100+hp / 120+trq. This is $43.70 per 1 hp (ish)

(stainless steel long tubes, hi-flo cats, stainless cat back, full ported 5.7 head with up graded spring and viton seals, custom MDS cam, head gaskets-bolts, 170* thermostat, Diablo handheld tuner, and AFEII cai)

However, that doesn't mean that $437 gets you 10 hp.........linear in fashion

What I am offering is that if enough people look at this and think this is a good idea then I can justify spending the resources to make sure we test and try all the parts and only carry the parts that work as described......

Next, we work withthe FORUM members to find out what people want in addition to these products: Husky mats, CB stuff, wheels, whatever; and offer group buys and discounts that make it more affordable.

We have the ability to work with you guys and work with other vendors that we already have accounts with so that we work together and all win.

We are talk right now to a fabricator and working with him to offer packages, products, and things your guys want and can use.........

My company has the connections to do what I claim and we bring our HEMI motor experience in with us...............from our perspective, the performance side of the business is our forte and needs to be in the fore front of what we do...............the other stuff just makes it more appealing for YOU the customer.


THoughts, questions, concerns?
 
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