[Creek]

Robby,

See pictures 3 posts below. Thanks Jeep 5253 I finally figured out how to get them over.

I have pictures of the wiring harness, but I cannot figure out how to post them, if someone wants to PM an email addy I can send them to be posted


I will attempt to describe what leads go where, I can see most but not all and some I can guess.On the negative side there is the connection for the Battery terminal, and a grd to the body near the battery. On the Positive side, there is the battery connnection and two terminals that connect to the two fuse pannels directly behind the battery.

Moving down the harness, the are two connector that go to the alternator (alt), one is a terminal that fits over a stud on top of Alt and the other is a two wire female plug that goes on the back of the alt. moving down there is a three wire male connector 2 of which are the wires to the back of alt.
I cannot tell for sure where this connector connects, but it looks as if it connnects to something near the bottom of the fuse pannel directly behind the battery.

At the far end of the harness are a pos and neg connetion for the selinoide/starter and a 3 position connector with one wire yellow with a slate stripe. I can't see what it connects to. This is the connector that is in question as there is heavy corresion on 2 of the female connectors. This sinle wire is the third pin in the 3 pin male connector that terminates under the fuse pannel. Don't confuse fuse pannel with the one inside the truck. These are black boxes under the hood.

I hope that this does not confuse you

 

[jeep5253]

Robby,

I have pictures of the wiring harness, but I cannot figure out how to post them

http://www.jeepcommander.com/forums/showthread.php?t=608

 

[Creek]

I think this might work

 

[robby]

OK,
Picture #3
The male plug with the female connectors within plugs directly into the solenoid section of the starter. The large terminal single hole connector is the main connector lug bolted to a large stud, also on the solenoid.

Picture #4
Female housing, male pins...This is where the ignition switch wiring plugs into the sub harness to trigger the solenoid, male plug, female connectors.
The other connectors are for return information to the body control and engine control modules.

Picture #5
All of the above connectors and shows a major grounding lug at center of photo.

So, your question was: Is this the likely failure point?
Yes.
If I found black or green corrosion at these points I would be fairly confident of it being the culprit.
Any resistance at this point will prevent the solenoid from making full internal contact with the main power lug, so click, no crank, would be the result.
Odds are, it is resolved.

Now, my questions....This is a highly unusual corrosion point. So unusual, I have to ask,
Has this vehicle been in deep water or operated where salt water can get up this high?
I don't want to freak you out, but, this is what I see when a flood car has worked its way up north.
If however, you've had it from new, and it has not been in deep water, then I have to wonder about salt water damage.
If non of these apply, than I guess your just unlucky.
Sometimes this type of corrosion is the result of a connector not fully seated and arcing occurs within the connector and the resultant heat damage shows as corrosion.
If you are operating around salt water, go to a marine supply dealer and buy a can of
Boshield aerosol.
Attach the extension tube to the spray head and flood every connecter with this product.
This will stop/prevent any further corrosion within the connectors and serve to make them more waterproof.
Re-apply annually.

Hope I didn't bore anyone,
Rob

 

[Yeggster]

OK,
Hope I didn't bore anyone,
Rob

Not at all .. very interesting! thanks for the info

 

[Creek]

Rob,

You hit it on the head. The corresion was in the connector in picture 2, which is the left connector in pic 3. I take my XK to the outer banks of NC at least once a year. Two years ago there was a strong west wind pushing water out of the sound and I had to travel through several flooded areas on my way down. Once I saw the connector I figured salt water was the cause, too bad the tech didn't look at it and clean it up instead of replacing the harness. I suspect this was what was causing my problem when they replaced the skim module and starter in Feb. Car had 5k on it when I got it, It was the dealers personal car and not in a flood.

 

[robby]

Well Creek,
I think harness replacement was the better way to go, now that we know salt water is the likely culprit.
Heres why.
Cut the connectors from the harness, leaving two or three inches of wire from the connector to the cut point.
Using wire strippers, remove the insulation from the connector to the the now cut end of the wire.
You will likely find the corrosion has extended well up and under the insulation following the wire. It will likely be green (rather than shiney copper or aluminum) or black.
Odds are, even if the connector had been cleaned, the harness would continue to corrode internally and the failure would recur.
My hats off to the tech, he covered his butt, and yours too.

Rob

 

[Creek]

My hats off to the tech, he covered his butt, and yours too.
I maybe can buy that, but not much to say for the two back in the early part of the year. I have 1.5K of my own money in this game. By the the way that dealership was closed. I do as most on this board appreicate your and the other techs input.

 

[robby]

$1500.00????
How come no warranty?
I try to visualize the service event in a attempt to figure out why it wasn't successful in the long term.
Since I wasn't there....it becomes speculative.
If I am a repairman, operating in a part of the country where corrosion failures rarely occur, odds are I would miss (overlook) the corrosion as cause of failure.
Being Devils Advocate for a moment: Pushed car in, tested battery, experienced customer complaint (click, no crank).
Can hear solenoid trigger but no starter engagement.
Non- serviceable unit (thanks Chrysler)
Remove/replace starter.....cranks and starts normally.

Now then, the tech is going to figure the concern is resolved.
He removed a starter that triggered but didn't crank.
He installed a starter that triggered but now cranks.

From a regional standpoint:
Up here, technitian does 'wiggle testing'
That means, every connector related to the customer complaint, will be opened, inspected, pulled, and pushed to verify the component is the problem, not the harness.
Thats because we are operating in a corrosive environment and suspect corrosion first, rather than a part failure.

I imagine a mechanic in Pheonix would tear his hair out, trying to find a electrical gremlin in a snow belt vehicle only because he looks for hard part failure first, corrosion much later.

If you speak to the serviceman who replaced this cable assembly you should ask him what made him look harder than the previous techs.
Was it because of your history of electrical gremlins?
Was it because he is seeing corrosion in this area of other vehicles (trending, helpful to all)
Or is he a relocated wrench that looks for corrosion first.
If none of the above apply, then you have found a real thinking repairman and keep him on your friend list.

Good luck,
Rob

 

[Creek]

To try to answer some of your questions

$1500.00????
How come no warranty?
I did purchase an extended non-dealer warranty my first and very possibly my last.

When I first had a problem, the dealer told me that the skim mod and keys were not covered. I have sent a copy of the bill to the warranty co, but don't expect much of a response from them as you will see below.

When they replaced the starter at the end of Feb, the dealer called and the warranty co authorized the repairs, but said I would have to pay up front, after being assured that they paid with their credit card when I purchased the warranty. Long story short after numerous calls I still have not been paid for the starter repair and it is now Sept. Lesson learned stay away from Dealer Services in NJ which sells a Royal Protection Plan product.

you should ask him what made him look harder than the previous techs. Based on my history, the service writer figured it had to be something different so they looked harder and did do the wiggle it was noted on the ticket.

I think the first repair to the skim module is the one that stings me the most, since I had to buy two new keys and then a week later I had to be towed back for the new starter and I guess here in FL they don,t think corresion. What got me was that 2 days after they replaced my skim mod they had to replace the skim in our Liberty which was still under warranty and we did not have to replace the keys. Since I and convinced that there was nothing wrong with the old module in the XK, I feel they should have been able to transfer the menory to the new one which would have made the bill $500+ less.

I also agree that this will probably fix my problem so it is time to move on.

Thanks for you help and thoughts.

 

[robby]

Sad story indeed.
Hope this chapter has ended.

Rob

 

[brendon]

Mine did the click/no start thing this morning. Strange thing is the windows didn't work at the time either. I hooked up the cables to my wifes car and first attempt was the same result. Waited a couple of seconds and tried the windows again and they worked, tried the starter and that worked too. Now that I think of it the dummy lights stayed on for a while too, even after removing the key from the ignition.

I am leaning towards bad starter because just a couple days ago it took about 5 seconds to disengage after starting; and about a month ago I heard an unusually loud click/crack when I started the car.

Any thoughts on why the windows didn't work? All the other electronics seemed fine, dash lights didn't dim out when trying the starter.

 

[robby]

Brendon,
The starter will stay engaged up to 5 seconds after the key is triggered.
It will disengage after 5 seconds or the engine starts, whichever occurs first.
This timed cranking is a result of a timer relay in all the Commanders.
It is there for the remote start, whether you have the option or not.
Anyways, I'm trying to say not to shoot down the starter because of the extendid cranking after releasing the key.

You may be seeing a failing battery or dirty cable connections.
The amperage required to light the lights is tiny.
The amperage required to run a power window motor is considerably more, and of course, spinning a starter motor is more yet.
You indicate the windows didn't work at first, then, after a minute or so of jump connection, all systems were restored.
Kind of lines up with the few moments a fully exausted battery requires with jumpers attached to develop enouph amperage for the higher draw components.

I'm thinking, more battery testing is in order.

My thoughts,
Rob

 

[jeep5253]

I agree with Robby. I think it is battery related.

 

[a49erFan]

I agree with Robby. I think it is battery related.

That makes three of us, mine did the same thing a few weeks ago!

 

[Yeggster]

Mine has been doing this on and off since we got it ... usually if you shut it off then try to restart right away.

We just wait 10 or 20 seconds and it starts right up ... it's defiantly NOT a bad battery with ours ... a couple times I had to try it 10 or 15 times before it started.

I'm off warranty so and it's not even a minor inconvenience as of yet ... my plan it to live with it and see what happens

I have also installed front tow bar tabs (pics coming soon) so if I have to I can tow it myself to the garage at no cost.

 

[robby]

Yeggster?
You might want to check that sub harness Creek and I were discussing earlier on this thread.
One end is difficult, as it slides onto the solenoid section of the starter.
The other end is (it appears) clipped to the rear of the battery tray.
Take a look at Creeks photos......may be helpful.

In Brendons case, specifcally because of the power window question, I question the battery.......still.

Rob

 

[Yeggster]

Yes I want to have a look at that harness for sure ... I'll check out the pictures and see if I can ID the ends ...maybe give them a good spray of cleaner.

 

[brendon]

Well, mine did it again today - no start but a definite click and no windows uppy/downy. It had only sat for about 20 minutes while I ate lunch. Tried a jump start pack - no go, tried a real jump start - finally started after about 15 minutes and many attempts. With no start I would not even get an attempted spin from the starter. Went back to work and got out our VOM and checked while still running - 14.5volts. Shut it down and went back in to work. Came out two and a half hours later and first checked the battery with VOM - still at 12.8v and the Jeep started fine. I drove over to Batteries Plus and they checked the battery and said it was fine. According to their load tester it was able to provide ~1000ca, and the battery is only rated for ~740ca!

Still have not had a chance to inspect any connectors. Is the starter on the driver side of the engine just above the front diff? It was hard to see when I poked under there earlier.

 

[brendon]

More food for thought. The windows are on the load reduction circuit and are therefore disabled when running the starter. I verified this tonight as everything is currently working. I don't have a service manual therefore no wiring diagrams...
Is it possible that a relay for the starter also controls the load reduction circuit and could be getting stuck midway upon energizing disabling both the windows and the starter?